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Q: What's wrong with having littermates

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JKC

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Dec 19, 2005, 9:56:47 PM12/19/05

I read on the web (including here) that having littermates (particularly of
same gender) is not recommended. Why is that? Can someone explain it in
more detail?

Naive and ignorant intuition tells me that having littermates would provide
life-long companions that could also ease the transition to a new home.

If I am to have 2 puppies (mainly for purpose of companionship for dogs) of
different breeds, is it important to have two different sexes? If so, why?
(I plan to neuter them both, regardless of gender.)

showd...@yahoo.com

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Dec 19, 2005, 10:20:15 PM12/19/05

get off this site you are signaling for sex.

IHateToSayIt...@inbox.com

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Dec 19, 2005, 11:09:15 PM12/19/05

HOWEDY JKC,

JKC wrote:
> Re: Q: What's wrong with having littermates

There AIN'T NUTHIN wrong with raising two same age / sex pups.

> I read on the web (including here) that having littermates
> (particularly of same gender) is not recommended.

It's not recommended by the LYING DOG ABUSING PUNK
THUG COWARD ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM
INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who TEACH BREED RACISM.

> Why is that?

THAT'S on accHOWENT of dogs BOND TOGETHER
IN DEFENSE from their ABUSERS who FEAR and
HATE dogs, otherWIZE THEY WOULDN'T HURT
INTIMIDATE MUTILATE and MURDER THEM, JKC <{) ; ~ ) >

> Can someone explain it in more detail?

When DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASES lock dogs in boxes
jerk choke bribe shock and spray aversives in their dogs faces
and IGNORE or PUNISH their CRIES when they lock them in
their boxes they BOND TOGETHER and IGNORE THEIR ABUSERS.

> Naive and ignorant intuition tells me that having littermates
> would provide life-long companions that could also ease the
> transition to a new home.

INDEEDY. HOWEver, the EXXXPERT LYING DOG ABUSING
PUNK THUG COWARD ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM
INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who JERK CHOKE SHOCK BRIBE
CRATE INTIMIDATE and SPRAY AVERSIVES in their dog's faces
find their dogs BOND TOGETHER and CANNOT BE SEPARATED
otherWIZE THEY GO INSANE. They become DEPENDENT ON EACH
OTHER on accHOWENT of THEY CANNOT TRUST THEIR ABUSERS.

> If I am to have 2 puppies (mainly for purpose of companionship
> for dogs) of different breeds, is it important to have two different
> sexes?

NO. ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR. ALL FEAR IS CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

> If so, why?

On accHOWENT of the LYING DOG ABUSING PUNK THUG COWARD
ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES
ABUSE their dogs and CAUSE THEIR OWN OPPOSITE SEX DOGS to
ATTACK EACH OTHER. IT'S ALL in The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
Archives on Google if you DON'T BELIEVE The Amazing Puppy Wizard.

> (I plan to neuter them both, regardless of gender.)

Surgical sexual mutilation for non medical reasons is INAPUPRIATE
UNNECESSARY VETERINARY MALPRACTICE and CAUSES PHOBIAS
AGGRESSION and INCREASES RISK of DIS-EASE including complications
of surgery and REDUCES LONGEVITY and ONLY ENRICHES UNETHICAL /
IGNORANT / ILL TRAINEDTERINARY MALPRACTICIONERS.

>From the articles below:

"The risk for castrated males was slightly greater than that for intact
males, which had 2.4 times the relative risk of intact females. Thus,
neutering appeared to increase the risk of cardiac tumor in both
sexes."

"In this study, therefore, castration at any age showed no sparing
effect on the risk of development of prostrate cancer in the dog.
The etiology of PC in the dog may not be exclusively related to
testicular hormones."

"Castration (26/56) increased the risk (OR=4.34;
95% CI 2.48-7.62) of PCA."

"Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological
evidence of an increased risk in castrated dogs."

"Neutered bitches lived longest of dogs dying
of all causes, though entire bitches lived longest
of dogs dying of natural causes, with neutered
males having the shortest lifespan in each category."

"Cancer was the most common cause of death in
the groups as a whole, accounting for 44.9% of
deaths of entire males, 34.7% of deaths of neutered
males, 50.2% of deaths of entire females, and 39.6%
of deaths of neutered females."

"The interval between castration and onset of prostatic
problems was highly variable, suggesting that castration
does not initiate the development of PCA in the dog, but
it does favour tumor progression."

"COMMENTARY: This article supports previous studies
showing BPH as the most common prostate disease in
dogs; that prostate carcinoma is relatively rare; and that
the prevalence of prostate carcinoma is higher in castrated
dogs than in intact dogs.

The age of castration had no effect on the age at
which the tumor was diagnosed. Because prostate
carcinoma is so rare in both intact and neutered dogs,
this should not be a deterrent to castration.

Prostate carcinoma is seen only in dogs older
than 6 years. When prostate disease is diagnosed
in castrated dogs, the probability of cancer is very
high. - David F. Senior, BVSc, Diplomate ACVIM &
ECVIM"

J Vet Intern Med 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7

The influence of castration on the development of prostatic
carcinoma in the dog. 43 cases (1978-1985). Obradovich J,
Walshaw R, Goullaud E

Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary
Medicine, Michigan State University, East Lansing 48824.

Prostatic carcinoma (PC) was diagnosed in 43 dogs at the Michigan State
University Veterinary Clinical Center (MSU-VCC) between 1978 and 1985.

Of the 43 dogs with histologically confirmed PC, 19 (44.19%) had been
castrated at least three years prior to the development of any
prostatic
disease. Seven of the castrates had been neutered at less than 12
months of age. Fourteen dogs (32.55%) were presented as intact males
at the time of diagnosis. The remaining ten dogs (23.62%) had been
castrated as treatment for presumptive prostatic disease prior to
referral
to the MSU-VCC. Dates of castration were known in all cases.

In this study, therefore, castration at any age showed no sparing
effect
on the risk of development of PC in the dog. The etiology of PC in the
dog may not be exclusively related to testicular hormones.

Work in humans suggests that the adrenal and pituitary glands play
a significant role in the disease. Preliminary work in dogs supports
that nontesticular androgens exert a significant influence on the
canine
prostate.

>From the Merck Veterinary Manual 8th Edition

Page 416 - The Thyroid Gland

Clinical Findings: Although onset is variable, hypothyroidism is most
common
in dogs 4-10 years old. It usually affects mid-to large-size breeds and
is rare
in toy and miniature breeds. Breeds reported to be predisposed include
the
Golden Retriever, Doberman Pinscher, Irish Setter, Miniature Schnauzer,
Dachshund, Cocker Spaniel, and Airedale Terrier.

There does not appear to be a sex predilection, but the risk of
developing
hypothyroidism appears to be higher in spayed females than in intact
females.

Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995.
Ware WA, Hopper DL.

J Vet Intern Med 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-103
A Veterinary Medical Database search from 1982 to 1995 identified 1,383
dogs
with tumors of the heart from a total population of 729,265 dogs (0.19%
incidence). Hemangiosarcoma (HSA) was the most common cardiac
tumoridentified.

In the subset of dogs with specific histologic diagnoses, the number
with HSA
was almost 10-fold that of the 2nd most common tumor, aortic body
tumor.
Primary heart tumors were more common than cardiac metastases.

When biologic behavior was noted, most heart tumors were classified as
malignant. Cardiac tumors (excluding lymphoma) occurred most often in
dogs between the ages of 7 and 15 years. In very old dogs (>15 years),
the frequency of cardiac tumors was the same or lower than that of the
youngest age group. Tumors occurred with similar frequency in males
and females, but the relative risk for spayed females was >4 times that

for intact females. For HSA, spayed females had >5 times greater
relative
risk than did intact females.

The risk for castrated males was slightly greater than that for intact
males,
which had 2.4 times the relative risk of intact females. Thus,
neutering
appeared to increase the risk of cardiac tumor in both sexes.

Intact females were least likely to develop a cardiac tumor, whereas
spayed
females were most likely to develop a tumor. Twelve breeds had greater
than
average risk of developing a cardiac tumor, whereas 17 had lower risk.

Influence of Gender and timing of Gonadectomy on risk for appendicular
bone sarcoma in Rottweilers

Cooley DM, Beranek B, Glickman LT, Waters DJ.
Departments of Veterinary Clinical Sciences and Veterinary Pathobiology
Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907

Background: The role of sex hormones in bone sarcomagenesis has not
been
extensively studied. In a previous study using the Veterinary Medical
Database
(VMDB), Ru et al. (Vet J 1998:156??-39) found a significantly increased
risk for
osteosarcoma in castrated males and spayed females compared with
sexually
intact dogs.

However, this VMDB- based study could not evaluate whether age at
neutering significantly influenced osteosarcoma risk. Purpose: To
determine if gender or
lifetime duration of gonadal exposure influences the risk for
appendicular bone
sarcoma in Rottweilers.

Methods: Data were obtained from owners of 746 purebred Rottweilers as
part
of a nationwide, population based study. Each dog owner completed a
questionnaire
regarding gender neuter status, age at spay or castration, bone tumor
occurence,
age at diagnosis, current vital status and age of death.

The incidence of appendicular bone sarcoma per 1000 dog years at risk
was determined for intact males, castrated males, intact females, and
spayed females.
The relative risk (RR) and 95% confidence limit of appendicular bone
sarcoma
was calculated by dividing the incidence rate for each gender-neuter
category
by the incidence rate for intact males (reference category; rr=1.0).
For males and
females, the influence of lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones on bone
sarcoma
was determined by comparison of the incidence of four subgroups
stratified by age
at neutering.

Results: Appendicular bone sarcoma affected 111 of 746 (14.9%)
Rottweilers.
The RR for bone sarcoma was 1.64 for castrated males, 1.36 for spayed
females
and 1.04 for intact females. Females spayed at <1 year of age had a
significantly
increased risk for appendicular bone sarcoma compared with intact
females
(RR=2.21). Similarly, males castrated at <1 year of age had a
significantly increased
risk for bone sarcoma compared with intact males (RR=3.12%)
Conclusions: In this
population-based study, Rottweilers that underwent gonadectomy at <1
year of age
had a significantly increased risk for bone sarcoma.

These observations may be explained by either a direct effect of sex
hormones
on skeletal homeostasis or by indirect effects on body conformation or
physical
activity.

Alternately, confounding factors unique to dogs that undergo
early spay or castration may account for this association

From: michael <c...@dogtv.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:04:57 GMT

Subject: Re: Neutering & Health (everything our "experts"
have preached for YEARS is wrong)

Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an increased
risk
in castrated dogs.

Teske E, Naan EC, van Dijk EM, Van Garderen E, Schalken JA.

Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Utrecht
University, P.O. Box 80.154, 3508 TD, Utrecht, The Netherlands

The present retrospective study investigated the frequency of prostate
carcinoma (PCA) among prostate abnormalities in dogs and determined
whether castration influences the incidence of PCA in dogs. During the
years 1993-1998, 15363 male dogs were admitted to the Utrecht
University
Clinic of Companion Animals, and of these dogs 225 were diagnosed with
prostatic disease. In addition, another 206 male dogs were diagnosed as
having prostatic disease based on cytologic examination of aspiration
biopsies submitted by referring veterinarians. Benign prostatic
hyperplasia was diagnosed in 246 dogs (57.1%), prostatitis in 83 dogs
(19.3%), and PCA in 56 dogs (13%). Dogs with PCA were significantly
older (mean age=9.9 years) than dogs with other prostatic diseases
(mean
age=8.4 years). The Bouvier des Flandres breed had an increased risk
(odds ratio (OR)=8.44; 95% CI 4.38-16.1) of having PCA. Castration
(26/56) increased the risk (OR=4.34; 95% CI 2.48-7.62) of PCA. The mean
age at diagnosis of PCA in castrated dogs and in intact male dogs was
not significantly different. The interval between castration and onset
of prostatic problems was highly variable, suggesting that castration
does not initiate the development of PCA in the dog, but it does favour
tumor progression.

From: michael <c...@dogtv.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:44:49 GMT

Subject: Re: Neutering & Health (everything our "experts"
have preached for YEARS is wrong)

WalterNY wrote:
>michael <c...@dogtv.com> wrote in message <news:3DD9636E...@dogtv.com>...
>>Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an increased risk
>>in castrated dogs.
>>Teske E, Naan EC, van Dijk EM, Van Garderen E, Schalken JA.
>>Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Utrecht
>>University, P.O. Box 80.154, 3508 TD, Utrecht, The Netherlands

Hello WalterNY,

I'm not talking about our "scientist experts." As they are a lot MOORE
free from bias than our so-called "expert" spay and neuter nazi
nannies.
A brain dead contingent of primarily white, suburban, overfed,
undersexed
radical control freak TOXIC MOMMIES who pave the road to heel with
their
good intentions.

For DECADES they have disinformed the public about the so-called
DANGERS
of a dog living with all the natural organs the dog was born with. VETS
are complicit in this as well, because SPAY and NEUTERING is a PROFIT
CENTER for many of them, much like VACCINES are.

But this is the CHANGING of the MUZZLE and SMARTENING UP of the
PUPULACE.

For DECADES our Spay and Neuter Nazis have nagged and scolded and lied
and skewed and pupularized the idea that sex organs on a dog are an
EVIL, a veritable cancer waiting to happen. They have used FEAR and
IGNORANCE and LOATHING for dogs so that they could further their goal
of
the ELIMINATION of dogs. Dogs (yes, actual dogs themselves) make our
so-called "dog lovers" radically uncomfortable and they are driven to
round them up and systematically ELIMINTATE them in our so-called
"Shelters."

They have PROMULGATED the LIE of a "PUPULATION CRISIS" in order to
justify their means of radically removing sex organs from dogs and dogs
themselves from society. They don't believe a dog has a right to live
if
it is uncaged, unfenced and unowned. Meanwhile, they care nothing about
loose, unowned deer, squirrels, rats, possums, etc... and to a lesser
extent CATS. It is only DOGS that DRIVE THEM CRAZY with the desire to
ELIMINATE them from the streets of America.

They think there is TOO MANY DOGS and they are desperate to GET RID OF
THEM. They claim to be "dog lovers" but really their main and ONLY
concern is CONTROLLING PEOPLE that they deem "irresponsible."

Unfounded FEAR of rabies drives the OVERvaccination of the Pupulace and
UNFOUNDED fears of CANCER and UNFOUNDED FEAR of UNCONTROLLABLE intact
dogs drive the POUND OF FLESH that our so-called "dog lovers" radically
DEMAND be cut out of our dogs to "FIX" them.

But I got news for ya WalterNY.

DOGS AIN'T BROKE! And they don't need radical, invasive surgery in
order
to "FIX" them.

Welcome to the NEW MUZZLE.

I'll be your host:

http://dogtv.com/michael_matty.rm
http://dogtv.com/michael_matty.rm
http://dogtv.com/michael_matty.rm
http://dogtv.com/michael_matty.rm
http://dogtv.com/michael_matty.rm

Look for MOORE of me on TV discussing this and sundry other dog issues.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!

this is michael
reporting live...
from the NEW MUZZLE of Dog Training

http://dogtv.com
http://changethemuzzle.com

From: Michael Patton <zzen...@earthlink.net>
Date: 1999/11/20
Subject: Sex and the Modern Day Spay and Neuter Nazi...

Eric Hayreh wrote:
> Jerry
> Maybe if you kept it short you wouldn't annoy so many people. Say what you
> have to say, without all the trimmings. If people are interested in your
> primary advice they can ask for futher advice. People can only take in so
> much of what is thrown at them. If it is given in shorter posts it may
> register better. I agree with training dogs without the use of physical
> abuse, but you can't always change peoples minds that use these methods. If
> they use them, they would have to be a bit twisted to start with to want to
> inflict pain on a good for 'a good cause'.
> In Britain there is always a drive to get pets neutered to try and reduce
> stray problems and unwanted dogs.

In Britain, there is also always a drive to exterminate
whole breeds of dog, and/or force whole breeds of dog to
live miserably, by forcing them to wear muzzles at all times
in public. All this, is spurred on by people who think they
are doing it in the interest of dogs.

Congratulations! You've done so well, that you've exported
your hate toward dogs to America and many other points West
and East...

You see, the vast majority of spay and neuter nazis, whether
in the US or Britain, aren't really interested in dogs at
all. They are interested in control. They have a
bloodthirsty desire to cut out the sex organs of dogs, yes
any dogs they can get their hooks into, all this, of course,
in order to "save" dogs. Dig beneath the surface, and you
see that all they are really interested in, is in obtaining
some type of "control" and "ownership" of the dog "problem"
by presenting themselves as the "good guys" and obtaining
some cheap moral authority which allows them to feel good
about themselves and their pernicious quest to stigmatize
and eliminate a fundamental part of dogs, their reproductive
organs.

Are you still with me, sweetie?

The vast majority of spay and neuter nazis are pitiful
control freaks who fear and detest dogs as they really are,
and who are too cowardly to go afer the people who cause all
the supposed problems in the Dog Game....so they take their
pound of flesh where they can get it, out of the dog, and it
gives them some satisfaction and helps them think they are
bettering life for dogs. They hystericalize to mythological
proportions the supposed "overpopulation" and "health"
problems related to dog sex organs, and make it seem like a
dog with sex organs is a disaster waiting to happen...

All of which is to further their own pathetic, self serving
agenda, and all of which has little or nothing to do with
the overall long term benefit of dog in society.

Are you still with me, Sweetie?

What the Spay and Neuter Nazis don't realize, sweetie, is
that by encouraging and demanding the elimination of dog sex
organs so rabidly, they are unwittingly participating in the
overall stigmatization and elimination of dogs altogether.

Sex organs are a fundamental part of dogs and dogs are (or
at least, "were") a fundamental part of society. Let's see
how long it lasts with friends like the Spay and Neuter
nazis helping out so diligently.

If there is a problem with dogs in society, it has little to
do with their sex organs, and everything to do with the two
legged part of the symbiosis who isn't keeping up their end
of the bargain. Any extreme focus on the dog end, or the
dog reproductive end of the equation, is simply a quick,
easy, cowardly, scapegoating play for self-gratification by
a do gooder desperate for a cause.

Are you still with me, sweetie?

If your rabid focus is on parts of the dog, then you are not
a part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Are you still with me sweetie?

Have a nice day!

This is Michael
Reporting Live...
>From the SuperDog Station

http://dogtv.com

From: michael <c...@dogtv.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:06:57 GMT
Subject: Re: *ooomph*

The Puppy Wizard wrote:
> These imbeciles are pretty hung up, eh Soup???
> michael wrote:

HOWEdy Wiz,

our spay and neuter nazis' fear and loathing of testicles is emblematic
of their fear and loathing of dogs in general. They are deeply and
shamelessly repulsed by the natural parts which make up the dog. They
seek to eliminate parts of dogs, to eliminate dogs themselves and
eliminate access to dogs in HOWER society.

They are HOWER dogs worst enemy. Yes, it's the Suja's and the BethF's
and the Tara O's and TaraGreen2's and the "rescue" BWAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!
societies and the shelly and MALinda's who talk a good game, but all
they really want is blood and their pound of flesh.

This sick freaks need to be exposed for the dog haters and enemies of
dog that they are. They need to find another species to busybody into
the ground and love to DEATH.

That's not gonna happen anyMOORE, Wiz. Not on our watch. We're flippin
the script on these Bizatches. It's DOG GAME TIME.

>> If you bitches are so repulsed by testicles, why did you get male dogs
>> in the first place?
>> BethF wrote:
>>> "Suja" <spana...@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in message
>>> news:3E70C7DB...@scs.gmu.edu...
>>>> BethF wrote:
>>>>> i hate to say this but every time tok runs away from where i am, and i
>>> see
>>>>> his ugly, GIANT, pink balls flopping around, I think "I wish my dog
>>>>> were more like Bodhi"
>>>> You can see them through all that hair? I'm surprised. That's one
>>>> good thing about having a hairy dog; although Khan was a late neuter,
>>>> you can't see nothing between his legs because of his poufy butt. OTOH,
>>>> Simon, the doofy doberman has shriveled up little bags that are VERY
>>>> visible.
>>> Suja these are so big they hang down beyond the hair. Kavik's were
>>> totally invisible so i had no idea that hairy dog balls could hang out. Its
>>> truly hideous.
>>> I will take a photo and post.

--
this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com

with the all
new & exciting
dogtv.com couchcam

showd...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 12:23:14 AM12/20/05

jerry have yu blow yur noise yet?

Rocky

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 12:53:06 AM12/20/05

"JKC" <jkcj...@yahoo.REMOVETHIS.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

[followups to rec.pets.dogs.behavior]

> I read on the web (including here) that having littermates
> (particularly of same gender) is not recommended. Why is
> that? Can someone explain it in more detail?

Longevity - there's a pretty good chance that you'll go through
the heartbreak of losing both dogs close to each other.

Genetics - if one dog has a genetic disorder like epilepsy or
hip displasia, there's a chance that you'll face the heartbreak
and medical bills of both dogs having the same disease.

Training - it's very difficult to find the time to properly
train one dog, let alone two. I prefer about 3 years between
dogs.

Bonding - there's a pretty good chance that these dogs will bond
very closely to each other and not so much to you, exacerbating
the training issues mentioned above.

Same sex - if issues are going to arise between two members of
the same pack, it's somewhat more probable that these two dogs
will be of the same sex, probably female.

None of these things are set in stone, just playing the odds.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BigHairyBeanBag

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 1:38:28 AM12/20/05

In article <1135051755.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
IHateToSayIt...@Inbox.Com says...

> HOWEDY JKC,
>
> JKC wrote:
> > Re: Q: What's wrong with having littermates
>
> There AIN'T NUTHIN wrong with raising two same age / sex pups.
>
> > I read on the web (including here) that having littermates
> > (particularly of same gender) is not recommended.
>
> It's not recommended by the LYING DOG ABUSING PUNK
> THUG COWARD ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM
> INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who TEACH BREED RACISM.

Since you are new here, you just got hooked by replying
to this well known netloon and troll. Once he baits you
as he does with others, you became troll bait and he will flame
you and harass you through this newsgroup and in email.

PLEASE killfile this well known Jerry Howe aka
The Puppy Wizard who is using alot of alias in
here. He is a pathological liar, pervert and
bastard net kook.

All he does is slander and defame people in
here and never listens when told to stop. He knows
nothing about dog training or canine behavior.

He just makes this up, his nose gets longer and
longer like Pinocchio due to lying for years
and he has been abusively trolling this newsgroup
and others for years.

He keeps putting " XXX " in each word, which means
that he is so perverted and he is mentally ill and
off his medication and it is better that all of
you keep him in your killfiles for the time being.

showd...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 2:23:06 AM12/20/05

he talks ,in riddles cuz he is is so "Ashleigh Brilliant" the bad ass
ninny who owes me money fur writiti tHe WiTh me un no paY me back moneY
He Stloe fur writin!

showd...@yahoo.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 2:26:11 AM12/20/05

Un Yu is so losin Yu touccch Yu is so nu as funny then in yo books 10
yers aligator!

AnimalBehaviorForensicSc...@hushmail.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 4:38:29 AM12/20/05

HOWEDY matty you miserable lying dog abusing mental case,

Rocky wrote:
> "JKC" <jkcj...@yahoo.REMOVETHIS.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> [followups to rec.pets.dogs.behavior

HOWE COME you don't want your reply to go where
JKC WANTED IT to go, matty? Does it make you FEEL
P-HOWERFUL CON-TROLLING where your reply goes?

> > I read on the web (including here) that having littermates
> > (particularly of same gender) is not recommended. Why is
> > that? Can someone explain it in more detail?
>
> Longevity

BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!

>- there's a pretty good chance that you'll go through
> the heartbreak of losing both dogs close to each other.

Oh? Wouldn' THAT ONLY MATTER if he owned WORKING DOGS, matty?
OtherWIZE he'd STILL HAVE TWO DEAD DOGS if he OWNED TWO DOGS
for LIFE, WOULDN'T HE, matty?

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!

> Genetics -

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!

> if one dog has a genetic disorder

If he buys from a ETHICKAL BREEDER THAT WON'T HAPPEN.

WILL IT, matty.

> like epilepsy

BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!

Epilepsy AIN'T GENETIC, it's a PSYCHO NEUROGENIC DIS-EASE
caused by STRESS from MIShANDLING. Like your own dog GOT.

> or hip displasia,

BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!

Hip dysplasia is a DIETARY INSUFFICIENCY.

> there's a chance that you'll face the heartbreak
> and medical bills of both dogs having the same disease.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!

> Training -

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!

> it's very difficult to find the time to
> properly train one dog, let alone two.

THAT'S INSANE, matty. Trainin dogs is EZ if you DON'T
DO what YOU DO to dogs, matty. Raising TWO SAME AGED
dogs is TWICE AS EZ, matty:

From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST

> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?

It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.

Works like a charm.

My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.

Sorry that slipped my mind.

I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.

Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left over.

Funny part is the second dog who had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the first
dog.

Seemed he learned through osmosis.

Nice side benefit there.

It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.

I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.

I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.

I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG
FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.

Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.

Mike

> I prefer about 3 years between dogs.

Yeah, but you're a lyin dog abusin MENTAL CASE.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

> Bonding -

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAHAHAHAHHHAAAAA!!!

> there's a pretty good chance that these dogs will bond very
> closely to each other and not so much to you, exacerbating
> the training issues mentioned above.

THAT'S INSANE, matty. Dogs "BOND TOGETHER" IN
DEFENSE from their ABUSER, matty. THAT'D BE YOU!

> Same sex -

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

culprit's, suja's, and CEB's OPPOSITE SEX DOGS ATTACK EACH OTHER.

> if issues are going to arise between two members of
> the same pack, it's somewhat more probable that

THAT THEY'RE BEING ABUSED.

> these two dogs will be of the same sex, probably female.

CITES PLEASE?

> None of these things are set in stone,

THAT'S on accHOWENT of "NONE OF THESE THINGS" ARE TRUE.

> just playing the odds.

No matty, you're FULL OF CRAP.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Here's the liars dog abusers cowards and active acute chronic
long term incurable mental cases you're askin for advice:

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.

>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods

Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS TO TRAIN
THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.

That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:

Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As Neo would say: Woah, there is no

choke.

Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin man. Remember
Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?

E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my dog look so
pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.

So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread, started by Perry
Templeton June 20 2005

Denis

----------

On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:

> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy

one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------

And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.

----------

167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"

<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.

Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.

----------

Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:

----------

141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm

I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link
on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.

So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).

But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------

Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would be the
> > point? Where I come from, choking is choking. It's never
> > limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs. Thank you for
> your contribution.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

Deltones wrote:
> Rocky wrote:
> > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would be the
> > > point? Where I come from, choking is choking. It's never limited.

Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.

> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.

> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...

> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
> ----------
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
> ----------

HOWEDY janet,

Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:

Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> >Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> >dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
> Scream? no
> Choke? no
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with one,
> your opinion means nothing
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction"
--Janet Boss

"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.

Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.

It's all in the archives.

Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss

"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain And
Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation Of Correction
To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish Him, Thus Making
The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want To Avoid In The Future,"
grant teeboon RAAF.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET.

"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.

"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."

"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

------------------------------------------------------

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

From: Momi...@webtv.net (misty)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:29:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?

Beth wrote:
> So, jerry's techniques didnt' work for Peach?

Never had a chance to try them on her... I was still
using the e-fence and chains to keep her in the yard.

The suggestions I received here to keep Peach home were:
build a fence... wasn't going to happen.. we plan on putting
a modular home here within the next few years... put more
fence at the top of the pen I used so both dogs could play
bitey face w/o tangling, and similar suggestions.

Jerry was the only one to mention border training... but he
was kook supreme ;-P So I ignored him... no killfiles with
webtv.. at that time Jerry had his own troll, somewhat like
Candace, so the group was not very conducive to learning anything.

At one point I even b*tched about Jerry.

By the time I tried out Jerry's manual Peach had already ran away.

Not very good at the google groups search but you'll find my
first post at "runaway dog message 30" within that thread is
mention of the dogs taking off and being gone for 2 days. I
stopped posting for a bit... my middle boy was devastated that
his dog was gone... Zelda came home but not her mom.

The next few posts from me were ones about/to Jerry.

Then Jerry made the WETM accessible for webbes, I put it
in my e-mail (no storage otherwise on webby unless you put
stuff on a webpage) and read it, read it and read it.

Once I understood what the concept was, I implemented it
on Zelda. It worked and I now have a great housedog!

I only regret that my own distrust of Jerry caused me to lose
another wonderful dog. Peach was an absolute gem with little
kids. I and my boys still miss her. Sometimes I still look
to see if she came home when we get back from trips. Maybe
Peach would still have ran away... I don't know and never will....

~misty

From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:16:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?

Peach would be there sittin pretty had our pals not given you a bum
steer cause they're EMBARRASSED and AFRAID of losing their careers
and reputations.... Jerry.

Stick around, we're just startin to have FUN learning and
sharing...J;~)

"misty" <Momi...@webtv.net wrote in message news:

16990-3CAB1F8...@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...

I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's
not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her
loss.

I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how
you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my
using a shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not
wanting to stay home.

Up until I started using it my main concern had been keeping
my dogs in their own yard.

Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my concern
became how to keep them from running off for days on end.

I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the
anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.

I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now <g>
A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained,
doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all
the time.

IOW a great companion and friend.

Thanks Jerry!

=====================

misty" <Momi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two
dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no collars.

Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come
back in the yard and would run for days.

The last time, Peach didn't come back home.

I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train
my dog. She is now border trained. A few minutes each day
reinforces her desire to stay in the yard.

She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her from
chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we walk around
the yard.

I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence
then you need to train your dog.

I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my dog in
our yard again.

The price was too high:-( ~misty

--------------------------------

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...

> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

>By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
>suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
>that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
>the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
>crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
>you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
>dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

PERHAPS your mentally ill daddy or mammy will
come bye an give you another pretty cool spankin?:

"CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand,

As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch.

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"," lying frosty dahl.

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.

Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

sinofabitch writes:
> >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took
> >> posts from two different people,

Of curse THAT'S a lie.

> >> took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> >> cobbled them together,

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

> >> then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> >> and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> >> Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> >> The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> >> when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> >> and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> >> is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

> > Here's Jerry's version
> > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
> > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
> > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
> > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
> > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
> > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
> > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
> > Here's yours;
> > "I dropped the leash, threw my
> > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
> > grabbed her opposite foot with my
> > left hand, rolled her on her side,
> > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
> > nipped her ear.
> > --Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

From: Mark Shaw (m...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST
In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrnsc53>,

"Coleman Brumley" <clbrum...@home.com> wrote:
>Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-Shock).
>If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?

If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system, I have
one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.

> I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
> more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
> walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
> so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
> watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
> props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
> I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.

I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.

That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw

Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST

"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.com> wrote in message

news:yIydnZpPsIz...@comcast.com...

Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
it felt like to me when I got shocked by
Hope's collar.
It felt like a bomb going off in my
hand and forearm.

--------------------------------

"Tricia9999" <tricia9...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20021117101433...@mb-cg.aol.com...

> how effective are these electronic fences in
> keeping a dog on a property????

Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.

Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.

Just hides under a desk in the house.

**************

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then.

She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.

Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

"Julia Altshuler" jaltshu...@comcast.net
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.
--Lia

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

> "Training is not confrontation"
> Lynn K.
> <except when it is>
> "So what? Whoever said that it's right to
> always not confront? We sure can try, but
> a dog who knows a command and growls when
> given it is certainly being confrontational".
> You can't simply walk away and pretend it
> didn't happen or leave it for later work in
> every situation."
> Lynn K.
> --------------------------------------

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.
---------------------------------

Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the
dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue:

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...

> >> Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
> >> quotes are true.
> >> In the posts below you take responsibility for
> >> making those calls.
> >> In your post above, you state you do not
> >> make those calls.
> >> Which one is it?

WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."

Lynn K.

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------

LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined

> But I think what Lois was referring to
> was the fact that Darlene actually
> stated at some point that she was
> bipolar--and, IIRC, that meds did not work
> for her--so she was prone to major-league
> ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..

Lynn K.

LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03

BoxHill wrote:
> I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read
> "The Unquiet Mind"?

Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.

Lynn K.
---------------------------------------

MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION
"KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS
DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...

YOU DO THE MATH

"What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"

From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02

BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS

"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,

"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."

The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.

No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."

Lois E.
-------------------------------------

DECENT PEOPLE DO NO POST HERE abHOWETS:

Here's professor dermer pryor:

From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST

And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?

Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.

(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),

--Marshall

Here's professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM research
at UofWI marshall "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM "NO!"
into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a
box for ten minutes contemplation" dermer:

"At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.

First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.

How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.

******IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?*******

When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).

"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.

BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:

"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.

From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM

Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,

I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.

You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts to
alert the world to animal abuse.

We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.

Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?

In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.

--Marshall Dermer

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message

news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...

> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!.

BigHairyBeanBag

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 5:32:35 PM12/20/05

In article <1135071508.9...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
AnimalBehaviorForensicSc...@HushMail.Com says...

> HOWEDY matty you miserable lying dog abusing mental case,
>
> Rocky wrote:
> > "JKC" <jkcj...@yahoo.REMOVETHIS.com> said in
> > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> >
> > [followups to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
>
> HOWE COME you don't want your reply to go where
> JKC WANTED IT to go, matty? Does it make you FEEL
> P-HOWERFUL CON-TROLLING where your reply goes?

Shut up fuckhole, go hump your dong on a dead dog. You are not wanted
here!

TO...@dog-play.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 5:32:59 PM12/20/05

In rec.pets.dogs.behavior JKC <jkcj...@yahoo.removethis.com> wrote:

> Naive and ignorant intuition tells me that having littermates would provide
> life-long companions that could also ease the transition to a new home.

Humans have a cultural value that family members should automatically get
along simply because they are family members. Yet even among humans this
is rarely the case. Even people who love their siblings very often don't
LIKE those siblings. In nature and in life littermates are more often
rivals than friends. Especially when they are the same sex.

--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/

AnimalBehaviorForensicSc...@hushmail.com

unread,

Dec 20, 2005, 6:18:11 PM12/20/05

HOWEDY Master Of Deception blankman you miserable lying
dog abusing punk thug coward mental case,

TO...@dog-play.com wrote:
> In rec.pets.dogs.behavior JKC <jkcj...@yahoo.removethis.com> wrote:
>
> > Naive and ignorant intuition tells me that having littermates
> > would provide life-long companions that could also ease the
> > transition to a new home.

INDEEDY. An EXXXCELLENT idea.

> Humans have a cultural value

That's a load of CRAP. You humans AIN'T GOT NO "VALUES" MORALS
ETHICKS PRINCIPLES or HUMAN DECENCY, Master Of Deception blankman.

> that family members should automatically get along

CITES PLEASE?

> simply because they are family members.

Perhaps you FORGOT abHOWET Lizzy Borden, The Menendez Brothers,
and of curse Oedipus who murdered his DADDY and was INTIMATE with
his MOMMY, Master Of Deception blankman?

> Yet even among humans this is rarely the case.

You mean you was blowin smoke up HOWER arses again you
miserable DHOWEBLE talking dog abusing mental case???

> Even people who love their siblings very
> often don't LIKE those siblings.

You got more smoke than Cheech an Chong, Master Of Deception blankman.

> In nature and in life

Don't you be tellin us abHOWET NATURE an LIFE you dog abusing
mental case. Tell us HOWE we can use a SHOCK COLLAR to POSITIVE
MOTIVATE a dog, you lyin sack of crap????

> littermates are more often rivals than friends.

That AIN'T been The Amazing Puppy Wizard's EXXXPERIENCE
Master Of Deception blankman. ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR.
ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING not CIRCUMSTANCES.

> Especially when they are the same sex.

Oh? You mean like suja and culprit aka kelly and ceb's
OPPOSITE SEX AGGRESSIVE DOGS Master Of Deception blankman?

> --
> Diane Blackman
> There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
> while preaching with violent words.
> http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/

You're a lyin spaming dog abusing mental case and you can't
post your lies and abuse here abHOWETS nodoGdameneDMOORE <{); ~ ) >

HOWEDY Master Of Deception blankman,

TO...@dog-play.com wrote:
>
> So Jerry's method requires that you devote full time

INDEEDY. 100%. ALL THE TIME.

AND, you GOTTA FOLLOW THE METHOD PRECISELY.

ANd you GOTTA DO THAT for FOREVER AND A DAY,
Master Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >

> to teaching a single dog?

To TEACH ANY LIVIN CRITTER, Master Of Deception blankman.

> The vast majority of people who pull dogs from shelters,

ALL of the "people" who "PULL DOGS" from "SHELTERS" are
those dog lovers YOU NETWORK WITH to MAKE MONEY off of
DISADVANTAGING DOGS of their original HOWESES for a "WEE
BIT OF MONEY" accordin to "TOO MANY NO KILL SHELTERS"
nolan feelin the PINCH of all them dogs SHE GOT TO MURDER
on accHOWENT OF there's TOO MANY NO KILL SHELTERS Master
Of Deception blankman <{): - ( >

Your SHELTER / RESCUE / FOSTER CARE NETWORKS are OPERATED
and STAFFED by KNOWN LIARS DOG ABUSERS COWARDS and ACTIVE
ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who JERK
CHOKE SHOCK BEAT CRATE BRIBE INTIMIDATE and MURDER INNOCENT
DUMB CRITTERS, Master Of Deception blankman.

THAT'S YOUR SHELTER / RESCUE NETWORK <{); ~ ) >

> and rehabilitate them,

FROM WHAAAAAT? ALL TEMPERAMENT AND BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS
ARE CAUSED BY MISHANDLING NOT BAD DOGS Master Of Deception
blankman THEREFORE ALL temperament and behavior problems
CAN BE CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY if you DON'T DO what your
NETWORKING BUDDIES DO TO THEIR OWN DEAD and DEATHLY ILL
SHELTER and RESCUE dogs <{); ~ ) >

> hold a full time job NOT in dogs

Well, JUST JUDGIN by their SUCCESS they should
be doin SUMPTHIN ELSE for their PLEASURE other
than JERKING CHOKING CRATING BRIBING SHOCKING
INTIMIDATING and MURDERING dogs on accHOWENT
of they DON'T KNOW HOWE to PUPPERLY HANDLE
RAISE or TRAIN THEM any doGgamened better
than YOU, for EXXXAMPLE, JUST JUDGIN BYE YOUR
OWN POSTED CASE HISTORY and HABITS <{): ~ ) >

LIKE LYIN.

> and care for their own dogs.

Like SUMMER? Like Joe Joe?

> Many have their own human families.

ALMOST ALL THEM DOGS HAD THEIR OWN HUMAN
FAMILY PRYOR to your NETWORKING BUDDIES
put them HOWET of their original HOWESES
on accHOWENT of they DON'T KNOW HOWE to
TRAIN those families to NOT PROVOKE their
dogs by DOIN WHAT THEY TAUGHT THEM TO DO.

THEN you WON'T NEED SHELTERS for ALMOST
ALL them dogs they REHABILITATED IN WON
HOWER FLAT, by simply DOIN EXXXACTLY
OPPOSITE of HOWE to TAUGHT US in your
NEW FREE BOOK.

> They can do it.

NO THEY CAN'T OR THEY WOULD HAVE NOT HAD
ALMOST ALL THOSE DOGS IN RESCUES AND SHELTERS
FOR BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS like Joe Joe but NOT
LIKE Summer who STARTED HOWET PERFECT and
was DRIVEN INSANE by her MOMMY who MURDERED
HER DESPITE that The Amazing Puppy Wizard
OFFERED Summer a PERMENANT SAFE FREE HOWES
where she'd NEVER BE JERKED CHOKED SHOCKED
or SPRAYED IN THE FACE WITH AVERSIVES SURGICALLY
MUTILATED or otherWISE DRIVEN INSANE or DANGERHOWES..

> Why not you?

That's Lucy's PERSONAL BUSINESS.

> Many people do not even foster the dog.

You and your pals should get the HEEL HOWETA
this business on accHOWENT of it's SELF PERPETUATED.

Were it NOT for YOUR NETWORK there'd ONLY BE
dogs in shelters and rescues for puporses
of HARDSHIP.

DOGS DO NOT GET LOST, Master Of Deception blankman.
If your dog RUNS HOWET ON YOU it's on accHOWENT OF
YOU PUSHED HIM HOWET and HE TOOK THE HINT.

> They merely go down to the shelter and work with the dogs.

You mean they don't work there FULL TIME like The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual STudents Crystal and Nevyn amongst
others INCLUDING PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS of twenty
and thirty years EXXXPERIENCE who've ASKED FOR
HEELP RIGHT HERE Master OF Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >

HERE IT IS JUST AS YOU SEZ YOU WISHED IT COULD BE:

HOWEDY Group,

Here some SUCCESS STORIES ive had
using JERRY'S MANUAL

1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, aggressive,
pulled on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw, fought
between each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerry's manual,
they were calm, friends, my companions.

2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK", the
girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the moment I
dropped him by their noses.

3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping
at the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRY'S
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVEN'T BARKED ONCE!

Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND
WELCOMED HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !

4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH -
lock him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS
AND HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE!

5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT -
HAD TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK -
ONE WEEK ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR
TOLD ME TO PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS
FOR SALE !

Quite amazing to - I thought they were just
dull coloured dogs, but after I had removed
the fear and anxiety their hairs coloured up
amazingly.

6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER
BALL! She carried it around all day and
night - 3 DAYS on jerrys MANUAL and she
now DROPS it when u ASK her to!

BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!

Nevyn

============

Subject: "Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For Dealing
With This I've Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now
And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME The Very First Time'
Re: To Jerry -Overcoming adult separation anxiety

From: Marilyn Rammell (marilynramm...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Separation anxiety (?) help needed!
Date: 1999/10/13

Hi Steve,

Just want to second Jerry's method for dealing with this -
I've suggested it to quite a few clients now and it's worked
'every' time.

It sounds a little 'amusing' I agree, but it really works.

Two of the occasions it's worked have been when the
owners were almost at the point of giving up (one had
actually put their dog into kennels for a few days so
that they could re-decorate the demolition done by the dog).

They rang me while the dog was still in kennels and were
not yet decided whether to collect the dog or not.

The very first time they tried Jerry's method, it worked.

Best of luck,
Marilyn Rammell

===============

From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."

Dear Jerry,

It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training manual but tell them
from me that it does work.

Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated
putting him down are impressed with him.

I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails. All 4 feet.

My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.

He even tried to kiss a child the other day.

Major break through.

This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield.

So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training is Do No
Harm.

The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.

Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed
aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my side where he
belongs.

Thank you so much.
Kay

Nevyn writes:

Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive
had with your training manual! My two mutts have gone
from out-of-control psychos to obedient well behaved
companions within a matter of weeks!

AND My friends have seen the success and have asked
me to work on their dogs!

I was working with a 5 month old Ridgeback female today
and she was being an angel after like an hour of working
with her!

It is AMAZING!!

I pity those fools who take their dogs to classes where the
"Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a degree? A masters?
a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the street who
think they know how to train dogs!)

Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!

NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.

================

"Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3c317fe4.03010...@posting.google.com...

> I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
> dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
> I do not know what started the problem but he came
> aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
> snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
> and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
> ad I took him with me everywhere.
>
> At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
> Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
> clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
> it was not working on his aggression problem.
>
> I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
> trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
> They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
> and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
> suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
> working as he was becoming more aggressive.
>
> I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph.D. 400 miles
> away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
> on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
> use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
>
> I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOGS
> ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH",
> ETC looking for help.
>
> We finally went to Purdue University Small Animal Behavior
> Clinic and they said he had fear aggression, punishment
> would not work, use the gentle leader and when out walking
> and he got stressed have the people stop until he could get
> in control using treats,and work on clicker training.
>
> At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
> the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
> would not come when I called him and would run away when I
> tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
> neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
> hasn't trained her dog"
>
> I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
> were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two were
> so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one said I
> should give up on him and kill him but they would say "You
> have to realize he is dangerous and you are responsible for
> him."

You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.

> As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
> going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
> Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
> Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.

> He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
> not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.

> The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
> I had been working for 18 month!

> Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
> from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
> I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
> blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
> can sound and he looked at me like uhn?

> I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
> -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
> looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
> on by.

> When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
> me like "you must be out of your mind"

> The results can make a believer!!!Three weeks since
> beginning the Wits End Training Manual program I walked
> him without the gentle leader in a busy shopping area with
> many dogs.

> He just seemed to not notice any one.

> When people talked to him or ask his name he would
> look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
> I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
> enjoy life out in public.

> If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
> was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
> and had to be killed. Through all this he never growled
> at me, guarded his toys or food or showed any sign of
> aggression with me.

> My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
> dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
> out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
> I know most people would have given up on him a long time
> ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
> but only with the right approach-sound and praise.

> I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!

===================

From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression

Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.

We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!

We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.

He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!

Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.

I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!

I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.

I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-

- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.

They also suggested the possibilty of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.

-------------------------------------

Your PALS told them NOT TO BELIEVE The Amazing
Puppy Wizard on accHOWENT of there's BETTER
INFORMATION from the ORIGINAL SOURCES and the
METHOD DON'T WORK they've BEEN USIN IT FOR
YEARS and it's fallin HOWET of FAVOR due to
NEW ADVANCES in TRAINING TOOL like thirty
five levels of MEDICAL GRADE STATIC LIKE
STIMULATION like tara o. aka tee. just got
for her FOSTER CARE DOMINANCE PISSER Joe Joe
and her PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLAR with
CUSTOM KNITTED COVER UP a la YOUR knittin
instructions so your NEIGHBORS won't SEE IT.

Here's WON of your SHELTER DOGS who lived in
a shelter for 2 YEARS gettin attacked by other
dogs. He was REHABILITATED IN 3 DAYS FLAT:

"MaryBeth" <marbe...@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:3cfcdcfb$2...@news.teranews.com...

> "MaryBeth" <marbe...@NOSPAMcomcast.net>
> wrote in message
>
> Didja also see that he has 'morphed' into Valerie M.
> Holmes ?????
>
> Note: I am not saying there isn't a VALID Valerie
> M. Holmes, but this one lives in howdy's home.
>
> MB <G>

From: Seeing Spots $Val$ (Holme...@worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Dear Wits End
Date: 2002-06-04 18:19:07 PST

HEY!!!

There is a Valid Valerie with a REAL Dalmatian
who is a real sweet dog with a few issues that I
am working to resolve after adopting her from a
shelter she spent 2 years in.

All I want is to get some decent help for my dog.

There is some decent stuff in Jerry's manual.
My dog has ACTUALLY been responding to
her training. The deal is you have to seperate
your opinions and impressions from the guy
who is writing these posts and take from the
manual what you want.

Personally, I get a pretty good chuckle out of
the whole Jerry thing. I have to say the guy
is pretty clever, you're letting him get under
your skin.

It makes for a very amusing game I think.

I'm sure he would agree, or he wouldn't be playing
everyday. He also wouldn't be playing if he didn't
believe that his method of training weren't valid.

Perhaps I'll learn from my mistakes, but so far,
using the Wits' End, I have gotten my dalmatian
to listen to me, to look to me for direction, to wait
for me to say when.

I have changed her from an aggressive dog to
one who is willing to please her owner, willing
to listen, willing to assume her role in the pack.

The real Valerie M. Holmes speaking

P.s. Jerry, don't get any ideas about morphing
into me, ok?

> Naturally that is more challenging,

NOT for The Amazing Puppy Wizard Master Of Deception blankman.

You want CHALLENGING? Take a look at the
recent thread on RESCUE and FOSTER CARE
your MENTALLY ILL PAL paula started with
tara o. aka tee entering into the fray
abHOWET HOWE HARD THEY WORK to SAVE DOG'S
LIVES and HOWE TOLERANT they are of their
BAD BEHAVIORS their HUMAN FAMILIES GOT TO
SACRIFICE for to MAKE THEM HAPPY.

> and yet even then they manage to achieve it.

MOST OF THE TIME THEY DON'T as EVIDENCED
by their POSTED CASE HISTORIES Master Of
Deception blankman.

> NOT professional trainers,

Some ARE.

> just people who decide to spend some
> time and effort to help dogs.

By HURTING and INTIMDIDATING and TOLERATING
the behaviors of the cunning domestic puppy
dog they AIN'T GOT the INTELLECT to HOWETwit?

> If you truly understand and belive in Jerry's method

HOWE COULD WON NOT Master Of Deception blankman
given that there's SO MANY POSTED CASE HISTORIES
and TESTIMONIALS that ALL S-HOWEND JUST LIKE The
Amazing Puppy Wizard WROTE THEM HISSELF...

> then you should be able to apply it to
> the benefit of the dogs -

Violin! THAT'S what Lucy IS doin, Master
Of Deception blankman. But there's a FEW
shelter / rescue NETWORKERS who OBJECT to
being PUT HOWETA BUSINESS by NOT HAVIN
PROBLEM DOGS TO SACRIFICE OVER <{); ~ ) >

They could basqe in "The Glory Of Achieving
Difficult Things With Dogs" lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn.

> your "different job" should be no impediment.

Well, think of THIS as TELECOMMUTING to WORK.

> So neither you nor Jerry will lift a finger
> to save the life of a shelter dog

Like Summer, FOR EXXXAMPLE?

> using the "superior" methods of yours?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual teaches ALL
HANDLERS ALL OVER The WHOWEL WILD WORLD
HOWE to PUPPERLY handle raise and train
ALL SENTINENT BEINGS NEARLY INSTANTLY
withHOWET HURTING THEM from settin RIGHT
HERE, STARK RAVIN NEKKID Master Of Deception
blankman <{); ~ ) >

> Not a single shelter dog about to die for cat
> chasing/killing will become the subject of your
> concern enough that you will actually APPLY your
> fervor to save it?

NOPE. Know HOWE COME? On accHOWENT of Lucy can
TRAIN HUNDREDS of FOSTER CARE GIVERS and SHELTER
RESCUE WORKERS and Animal CON-TROLL officers THE
INFORMATION THEY SO DESPERATELY NEED to ACCOMPLISH
YOUR HEART RENDERIN LOFTY GOALS, Master Of Decpetion
blankman <{); ~ ) >

> Come back and chat about the success of the "method"
> after you have successfully rehabilitated a couple
> dozen cat killers, dog fighters, perpetual barkers
> and dogs who go right through the walls during a
> thunderstorm.

You AIN'T SEEN ENOUGH to PROVE the METHOD WORKS
JUST LIKE HOWE IT SEZ IN THE BOOK, Master Of
Deception blankman? OR are you TELLIN US that
dog trainin is a PHYSICAL SKILL that NEEDS to
be learned at the HEEL of a MASTER TRAINER like
your pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn or captain
arthur haggerty, both lyin dog abusin punk thug
coward mental cases who HURT INTIMIDATE and
MURDER DOGS and LIE abHOWET IT JUST LIKE HOWE
YOU DO, Master Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >

> Since the "method" "works" after only four repetitions

IT'S BEEN REPORTED to work EVEN FASTER than THAT
Master Of Deception blankman. Like TEN MINUTES
for a 100% RELIABLE COME COMMAND. HEELIN in 15
minutes. Fear of thunder WON DAY. Separation
anXXXIHOWESNES: SECONDS.

What was we talkin abHOWET anyHOWE? Oh yeah,
RESCUE and SHELTER. HOWE MANY of them RESCUE
and SHELTER dogs are DUMPED for FEAR OF THUNDER
or DESTRUCTIVE SEPARATION anXXXHOWESNESS that
can't be CON-TRAINED by LOCKIN IT IN A BOX and
SHOCKIN IT when IT CRIES.

> 30 minutes a day should be more than sufficient time.

FOR WHAAT? It'll take WON HOWER to TRAIN a family
to be able to KEEP THEIR DOG in HIS HoWES, Master
Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >

The MANUAL is only 75 pages...

> Five days a week for four weeks should ensure
> adequate opportunity for repetition in various
> environments. Take the time out of "discussion"
> time and make that "doing" time and you can save
> the lives of at least 12 dogs a year.

Tell THAT to your NETWORKIN BUDDIES when YOU
SEND THEM their own FREE COPY of The Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual and THIS NEWS GROUP as CONTACT
INFORMATION for The Amazing Puppy Wizard in
the UNLIKELY EVENT they NEED some EXXXTRA
FREE HEELP just like anyWON ELSE who'd ever
ASKED FOR HEELP to NOT HURT THEIR DOGS NOMOORE
from The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{); ~ ) >

> Measure of success?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Students ALL
OVER The WHOWEL WILD WORLD REPORT CURING ALL
teperament and behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY.

Ask professor SCRUFF SHAKE if he done his
COMPARATIVE ANAL-ysis of the CASE HISTORY
DATA WE GOT RIGHT HERE on The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's Archives on Google and other FINE
unmoderated pubic news group search engines

> A year passes with the dog having the opportunity
> to behave incorrectly and yet it does not do so.

THAT'S on accHOWENT of you and your punk thug
coward NETWORKERS DON'T KNOW HOWE to NOT HURT
their dogs Master Of Deception blankman.

> Since your dogs are so awesomely behaved

INDEEDY. WON would think you and your RESCUE
NETWORK would JUMP at the CHANCE to do likeWIZE.

But you'd have to STOP HURTIN DOGS and THAT AIN'T
FIXIN TO HAPPEN on accHOWENT Of you're

1. PROFITEERS.
2. DOG ABUSERS.
3. LIARS.
4. COWARDS.
5. MENTAL CASES.

SEE? SEE?? SEE??? SEE???? SEE?????

> you can easily foster these dogs

For WHAAT? You can REHABILITATE and KEEP
THEM IN THEIR OWN HOWES for the PRICE
of the "standard" REQUESTED DONATION for
a DUMPED DOG thru your NETWORK. Then you
could DISCONTINUE shippin dogs playin
hide the weenie with them till they can
find a "FOSTER" care giver who'll TOLERATE
those BAD BEHAVIORS and BUY the dog from
you. THAT'S HOWE YOUR NETWORKIN WORKS.

Seems CURING the PROBLEM will EXXXTINGUISH
ALMOST ALL of your NEED for RESCUE FOSTER
and SHELTER CARE. Just think of the benefit
THAT will be... not to mention the CESSATION
of fully 90% of VETERINARY CARE as those
TYPICAL EXXXPENSES and DIS-EASES are IATROGENIC
and IDIOPATHIC, caused BY YOUR ADVICE published
RIGHT HERE on The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Forums And
SCHOOL Of HARD KNOCKS and HUMAN BEHAVIOR RESEARCH
LABORATORIES Master Of Deception blankman.

Seems you've opened AND CLOSED a CAN OF WORMS.

> as it is unlikely that a shelter will hold them
> as long as four weeks if they have any significant
> problems.

Given the SCIENTIFIC FACT that ALL temperament
and behavior problmes are CAUSED BY MISAHDNLING
that'd LIKEWIZE OBVIATE 90% of the NEED for
SHELTER and RESCUE and FOSTER CARE DOGS so
your NETWORK can DEDICATE 100% of their EXXXTRA
FREE TIME to REHABILITATING their own dogs
and children using the SAME TECHNIQUES used
on DESPERATE SHELTER and RESCUE DOGS all over
The WHOWEL WILD WORLD Master Of Deception
blankman <{); ~ ) >

> Unless, of course, you are conceding that the method

You mean The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual Master Of Deception blankman <{); ~ ) >

> can't deal more effectively with significant problems

Like HANDER AGGRESSION Master Of Deception blankman?
Like FEAR AGGRESSION of small children DESPITE that
Summer was RAISED with a INFANT?

> than other methods.

WHAAAT "other methods" Master Of Decpetion
blankman? You mean your reward avoid and
restrict methods which drove DaveR's dog
INSANE in WON WEEK?

> If you want to concede that I'd be perfectly happy with
> you saving the lives of a dozen dogs with routine problems.

Let's talk abHOWET some SPECIFIC ROUTINE PROBLEMS
Master Of Deception blakman? ALL temperament and
behavior problmes are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING not
BAD DOGS. PERHAPS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT?

Theres AMPLE PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENTATION
that VERIFY EVERY THING The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ
abHOWET behavior and HoWE DOGS LEARN Master Of Deception
blankman. Perhaps you should READ a few of The Amazing
Puppy Wizard's Posts CON-TRAINING QUOTES from scientists
like Whelan, Mary Cover Jones, Breland, Pavlov, Freud,
Sam Corson and his FRIEND Dr. Von Hilshiemer?

> Hell you can dance in combat boots and a tutu for all I care

Good, so you WON'T MIND The Amazing Puppy Wizard
TRAININ ALL DOGS ALL OVER The WHOWEL WILD WORLD
NEARLY INSTANTLY from settin RIGHT HERE stark
ravin nekkid, Master Of Deception blankman?

> if you can manage to take a dozen dogs slated for death

HOWE abHOWET you just NETWORK a little and FIND
Lucy a half dozen RESCUERS who'll STUDY what Lucy
LEARNED HOWE to do, Master Of Deception blankman
and she can do that HARD WORK between openin her
emails and shoppin for bargains on dog trainin
books videos and tapes on your website?

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHHAHAHAHAAA!!!

> and get them successfully placed for exceeding a year.

RECIDIVISM IS A MISHANDLING PROBLEM.

You keep wantin to BLAME THE DOG for not EXXXCELLIN
when IT is being JERKED CHOKED SHOCKED SPRAYED SURGICALLY
SEXUALLY MUTILATED BRIBED INTIMDIATED and MURDERED.

> I'd lay money down

MONEY AIN'T NO GOOD HERE abHOWETS Master Of
Deception blankman...we're talkin abHOWET
CRIMINAL INSANITY.

> that you won't actually use your personal time and
> effort to help so much as a single shelter dog,

You're QUITE the BEGGAR, ain't you?

PERHAPS it is YOU who WON'T HEELP A SINGLE SHELTER DOG.

> but one can always try.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM. You SHOULDN'T TRY sumpthin
YOU DON'T KNOW HOWE TO DO unless you LEARN IT
at the HEEL of a Master. So, ASK Lucy, Master
Of Deception blankman, she'll be EAGER to GIVE
you and ALL your rescue shelter dog lover ALL
the ADDITIONAL INFORMATION they MIGHT NEED if
they're havin a PROBLEM NOT HURTIN DOGS to train
them... THEN you can SHUT DHOWEN that viciHOWES
commercial spam website you PROMOTE RIGHT HERE.
> --

> Diane Blackman
> <SNIP CRAP LINKS

HOWEDY debbie s,

Debbie S wrote:
> From: TO...@dog-play.com
>
> < Price should be last on your list of questions.>

That's sheer idiocy.

> Most of my dogs have been given to me,

LikeWIZE, mostly by trainers like youreslf
or their VICTIMS <{) ; ~ ) > who are too
AFRAID to take the dog back after rehabilitation
or are too EMBARRASSED to see the dog rehabilitated,
like your pal tara o. aka tee when she MURDERED
her own DEAD DOG Summer <{): ~ ( >

> but when I was searching for my GSD {and having
> been away from the GSD world for decades},

Well ain't you LUCKY that we got SFBAGSD Rescue
volunteers lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn and her
business partner sindy SADIST MOOREON and their
PERSONAL REAL LIFE PAL Master Of Deception blankman
RIGHT HERE for your GSD edification and RESCUE:

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

Here's lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn's PARTNER:

You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG
to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

---------------------------------

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...

> >> Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
> >> quotes are true.

> >> In the posts below you take responsibility for
> >> making those calls.

> >> In your post above, you state you do not
> >> make those calls.

> >>Which one is it?

------------------------------------------

THAT'S INSANE, AIN'T IT... LIKE THIS:

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...

> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.

> Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...

> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

THAT'S INSANE, AIN'T IT.

HERE'S HOWE COME:

WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression)
requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every
day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn
more, while happily sharing pertinent information
I have learned. But if I were ever to post such sh*t,
I would hope that every other reader of this group
would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we earn
the right to participate in by observing the
easily understood rules and contributing to in
constructive ways."

Lynn K.

---------------------------

SEE? SEE? SEE?

> price was one of the FIRST questions I asked.

The prices of ETHICKALLY BRED DOGS are INSANE.

> I knew I couldn't afford a $5,000.00 dog.

Yeah. That might not be unreasonable for
a finished dog with all the titles but it's
a little EXXXORBITANT for a puppy. But since
folks like we got RIGHT HERE will pay that
kinda dough for a dog that's got a long line
of SELECTIVELY BRED HAND PICKED AND TESTED
for GENERATION after GENERATION of line bred
CHUMPions like lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn's
SAR dog JIVE who RETIRED after a NON EXXXISTENT
CAREER doin SAR work. In his early retirement
JIVE is NHOWE learning HOWE to CON-TROLL hisself
in the sheep hurtin arena. CuriHOWES AIN'T IT,
HOWE COME JIVE couldn't WORK SAR (on accHOWENT
of he gets HEAT PROSTRATION) yet can go into
a sheep field and run his ass off for a couple
HOWERS <{) ; ~ ) >

> I had $1200.00 saved, figured $2000.00 wouldn't
> be too much of a stretch,

We got folks RIGHT HERE who've paid TWICE THAT
to "rehabilitate" their dogs and FAILED MISERABLY.

> and didn't want to waste anyone's time discussing
> a breeding that was out of my league.

Yeah? Any ETHICKAL breeder who'd SELL YOU a dog
wouldn't be a ETHICKAL BREEDER noMOORE.

> <shrug>

Your dog comitted suicide by jumping off
a cliff ESCAPING from your HOWES <{) : ~ ( >

From: d...@nospam.diddy.net (diddy)

a. I don't think she jumped over, but on, then slipped. I"ll freely
admit I don't know for sure, it happened in a flash. The top is 4"
solid wood.

b. it's not a fence, per se. It's a deck railing.

Debbie

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

> Debbie

HERE'S YOUR SECRET TO SUCCESS:

"I do not own an aggressive dog. If I did, I'd put
a bullet in it's head.